Jimmy Lai, founder of Next Digital, is facing charges including “conspiracy to collude with foreign forces,” with the trial continuing for its 96th day on Monday (25th) at the West Kowloon Court (acting as the High Court). On his fourth day of testimony, Lai twice rebutted the testimony of prosecution witness Cheung Kim-hung, stating he never discussed sanctions with Cheung. Regarding Cheung’s claims about directives for the English version of the news, Lai directly accused Cheung of fabricating evidence.

Last Friday, the defense questioned Lai about his column articles, where Lai denied any intent to incite violence or hatred towards the government. However, he admitted that in one article, he had praised a young girl for cursing at the police, influenced by the atmosphere at the time, and agreed that the remarks were vulgar, for which he now regrets and apologizes. He also explained that his mention of “no distinction between bravery and violence” was not to glorify the militant faction but to hope they would be moderated by the influence of peaceful protesters.

The case is being heard by National Security Law-designated High Court Judges Esther Toh Lye-ping, Susana Maria D’Almada Remedios, and Alex Lee Wan-tang. The prosecution is represented by Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions Anthony Chau Tin-hang, Assistant Director of Public Prosecutions Ivan Cheung Cheuk-kan, and Senior Public Prosecutor Crystal Chan Wing-sum; Jimmy Lai is represented by senior barrister Robert Pang Yiu-hung, barrister Steven Kwan, and New Zealand-qualified barrister Marc Corlett.

16:13 Court Adjourned

15:06 Lai States His Secretary Uses His Phone to Set Up Slack Communication Groups

The defense displayed a WhatsApp conversation between Lai and his secretary, Julie, from October 30, 2018, which mentioned a lunchbox meeting scheduled for November 8 with the Apple digital edition. The attendee list was already drafted, including “Boss Lai,” “Cheung Kim-hung,” “Simon Lee,” “Nick,” “Fung Wai-kong,” “Kaman,” “Ka-chung,” and others, totaling 11 people.

The defense asked how Slack operates. Lai explained that different departments have different Slack groups, but he forgot how many there were, estimating about 5 to 6 groups. The defense showed a screenshot of a Slack group called “HK Apple online discussions,” created on October 29, 2018.
Lai mentioned that the group was likely set up by his secretary Julie, who could use his account. He added that Julie uses his phone to set up groups, allowing him to discuss with colleagues on Slack.

14:59 Defense Questions Regarding Apple’s Slack Platform

The defense focused on questioning about Slack and the “lunchbox meetings.” When asked by the defense, Lai stated that he uses Slack but is unsure of what it is. Regarding the first lunchbox meeting, Lai said he does not remember when it was, only that it was a long time ago.

The defense showed a WhatsApp conversation between Lai and Cheung Kim-hung from September 28, 2018:

Cheung: Boss, can we schedule the weekly VIP room lunchbox meetings on Thursdays or Fridays? The group would be twelve people, mainly middle and basic level staff, would that be okay?
Lai: Isn’t twelve people too many? Including you, me, and Dom, it’s best not to exceed eight for the best communication. It’s good if middle and senior levels are involved.
Cheung: Boss, alright. I’ll arrange it and see.
Cheung: Is the first meeting on October 18th at noon okay?
Lai: Should be fine. Thanks. Lai.

Judge Alex Lee Wan-tang asked, “Who is ‘DOM’?” Lai identified him as a male chief operating officer. The defense asked if this was the predecessor to Royston Chow? Lai agreed. The defense continued, asking if the first lunchbox meeting occurred on October 18, 2018? Lai agreed, adding that at that time, there were no Slack meeting records.

Upon further questioning by the defense, Lai stated that senior and middle management attended the lunchbox meetings, such as Cheung Kim-hung, Chan Pui-man, and “Dom.” The defense asked if Lam Man-chung, the director of Apple’s Dynamic News platform, would attend? Lai said he did not know.

The defense mentioned messages between Lai and Chan Pui-man from March to May 2018, where Chan suggested drafting a questionnaire for colleagues asking, “What is lacking in the current newspaper content, including articles, photography, and graphics? What content needs enhancement? What can be reduced?” “What aspects of page layout need improvement?” The defense asked Lai if these issues were discussed at the first lunchbox meeting? Lai said he did not remember.

14:33 Court Session

Defense attorney Steven Kwan noted that Jon K.H. Wong, the barrister representing three related Apple companies, had an accident and injured his left arm severely, requiring a follow-up hospital visit tomorrow afternoon. He stated that the upcoming questions would focus on Apple’s work platform Slack, involving the crime of conspiracy to publish seditious publications and also related to the three Apple companies, suggesting that questioning should continue only in Wong’s presence.

Wong added that he had already undergone surgery and would visit the hospital tomorrow for a follow-up. Upon hearing this, Judge Esther Toh announced that court would not be in session Tuesday afternoon. As the court had previously only scheduled Tuesday afternoon for proceedings, it means that court will not convene at all on Tuesday.

12: 57 Lunch Break

12:50 Lai: Employees Worried About Bankruptcy in 2018

The defense began questioning about the “Lunchbox Meetings,” mentioning that when Jimmy Lai returned to work at the company in 2018, the group was facing losses. Lai recalled that employee morale was low at the time because they were all worried that the company might go bankrupt.

The defense then displayed a message from Lai to Cheung Kim-hung from 2018, where Lai had forwarded a conversation between him and Cheung Chi-wai. The defense noted that at that time, Cheung Chi-wai had synthesized the employees’ opinions. Lai explained that it was about how to improve the quality of online videos.

12:30 Lai: All Hashtags in Twitter Posts Were Added by Simon Lee

The defense displayed a message sent by the then director of Apple Action News, Cheung Chi-wai, which included “Luke de Pulford involved in ‘I have a part in DQing you’ knowing the resistance idol Luke de Pulford,” along with a link. Jimmy Lai noted that he did not open the link at the time but was aware that de Pulford was Lord Alton’s assistant.

Regarding Lai’s Twitter posts, the defense highlighted that the messages sent by Lai to Simon Lee were similar to the content on Twitter. Lai explained that the early posts were written by him and then edited by Simon Lee, showcasing the relevant WhatsApp messages in court. The defense pointed out that Lai’s WhatsApp messages did not include hashtags. Lai agreed, stating that hashtags were always added by Simon Lee on Twitter, and if there were any changes to the content, they were proposed to him before editing.

12:03 Lai: Twitter account managed with the help of Simon Lee

During questioning about Lai’s Twitter, he stated that Simon Lee (李兆富) handles his account. The defense displayed a salary statement showing Lee’s position as Assistant Group CEO, and asked about Lai’s relationship with Lee.

Lai described Lee as almost like his mentee, noting that he has known him since Lee worked at Apple Daily, and they have known each other for a long time. He also mentioned that Lee is a free market economist, which led to their discussions and eventually Lee becoming almost like his mentee. Judge Alex Lee Wan-tang asked if they knew each other before 2014. Lai said he couldn’t remember, but it was probably earlier.

Lai indicated that Lee “technically” manages his Twitter account, such as setting it up, following other accounts, and retweeting posts. Lai emphasized that he does not know how to follow someone, so Lee made those decisions based on his own judgment.

Judge Alex Lee Wan-tang inquired whether Lee needed Lai’s approval to retweet posts. Lai said initially yes, but later, due to trust, Lee made those decisions on his own. The defense noted that Lai’s Twitter account was closed in December 2020 under bail conditions, and before that, it had followed then-President Trump. Lai reiterated that following Trump was Lee’s decision.

Judge Alex Lee Wan-tang further asked if Lai paid attention to whom his account followed. Lai said he followed too many people to keep track, and if he wanted information on a particular followed account, he would ask Simon Lee. Judge Esther Toh Lye-ping asked who had the idea to send out the first tweet. Lai said it was his idea, and Lee assisted him as a “technician,” adding that it was originally Mark Simon’s suggestion to use Twitter.

11: 20 Break

11:15 Lai: Never discussed sanctions in news, accuses Cheung Kim-hung of fabricating testimony

On August 8, 2020, two days before his arrest, Jimmy Lai sent a message in the “Index” group (only members being Lai, Fung Wai-kong, and Cheung Kim-hung), mentioning, “We have too few news items, lacking critical mass to attract readers, we should think about ways to increase it, maybe add some financial news? But current events definitely need to increase.”

At that time, Fung Wai-kong replied, “Understood, we are gradually increasing, major news like US sanctions on Carrie Lam will be added immediately.” In court, Lai stated that the English edition had too few news articles, so he wanted to increase coverage, and Fung just used US sanctions on Carrie Lam as an example; Lai himself did not mention sanctions.

Judge Alex Lee Wan-tang asked if Lai meant there was not enough local or Chinese news? Lai stated that both local and Chinese news were insufficient. Lee further questioned if Lai had stated the need to be an alternative to “South China Morning Post,” but messages indicated insufficient reporting, asking if it meant there was not enough negative news? Lai mentioned that big data also referred to entertainment news, which they would report, purely indicating a lack of news coverage, with no other implication. The judge further questioned if the English edition was for garnering international support, thus not reporting entertainment news? Lai stated that due to insufficient coverage, there was a need to expand content.

Regarding Cheung Kim-hung’s testimony that Lai’s editorial direction for the English edition was about “resistance, protest, sanctions”, Lai responded that he never discussed news about sanctions, accusing Cheung of fabricating testimony.

The defense further quoted a WhatsApp conversation where Lai said, “Lo Fung, Do we need this kind of news that has nothing to do with China and all major English newspapers have published it? I wondered.”

Fung Wai-kong replied, “I am trying to include a few stories on international news as our readers are from all parts of the world and they may want to know a bit about major news happening around the globe, especially important news like US election.” Lai stated that he later also accepted Fung Wai-kong’s explanation due to the lack of news in the English edition.

11:00 Lai: Will not report if it’s illegal, message mentioned using big data to correct negative news about China

The defense continued to question about the Apple Daily English edition, which was launched on May 31, 2020, mentioning Apple Daily’s commitment to press freedom and the right to report the truth. The defense asked if Lai personally wrote the related promotional content. Lai denied but agreed with the statement. The promotion also included the slogan “an Apple a day keeps the fake news away!”, a slogan Lai said has been Apple’s since 1995. The defense then read out the 1995 slogan “an apple a day, no one can deceive me”. Lai responded that the meaning is the same.

The defense asked if this was Apple’s guiding principle? Lai said it was just a promotional slogan, but he agreed that he hoped to live up to this slogan. The defense further asked if reporting the truth would incite discussions about the government, would he still report the truth? Lai confirmed, adding that he would report because it is the truth, but he would not if it was illegal, stating that Apple has always acted according to the law.

The defense then quoted a WhatsApp message sent by Lai on June 19, where he mentioned “we can become the world’s most reliable, most-watched CCP news platform”. The defense questioned the difference between Lai’s statement in May that balance in reporting was unnecessary and his June statement about becoming the “most reliable, most-watched” platform. Lai explained that balanced reporting does not equate to reliability, but reporting the truth does.

The defense further referenced another group established by Lai called “Index”, with only Lai, Fung Wai-kong, and Cheung Kim-hung as members. In this group, Lai messaged, “What they say is wrong about China. We can use big data to find this out. We can even outsource the big data process to outsider. Quoting whatever data in the media or academic is in variance with truth, whether negative or positive about China, we let data speak for itself. There’re a lot of exaggerated negative reports about China, that we can make right no doubt. “

In court, Lai explained that he believed big data could reveal the truth about China, whether the news was positive or negative, to more objectively reflect the real China. He noted that at that time, many negative news items about China were exaggerated while positive news was overlooked. He hoped to implement the ideas mentioned in the message in the English edition. However, Lai mentioned that they had attempted to contact big data experts, but by the time he was arrested, these experts were still researching, and ultimately, due to technical reasons, it did not materialize.

10:56 Lai rebuts Cheung Kim-hung’s testimony, denies discussing sanctions with him

The defense displayed messages between Jimmy Lai and Cheung Kim-hung. Lai stated, “Kim-hung, I think the English edition would be most interesting to Americans with articles and news about China’s progressives, human rights, rights defenders, and CCP’s autocracy. Pui-man and Wai-kong could choose which news to translate, but still, it takes capable people continuously thinking to handle it best (this could be someone from outside). We focus more on news and articles about China, roughly twenty Hong Kong news and articles a day, five or six more than I initially envisioned mainly because we’ve added an emphasis on China.”

Lai confirmed under questioning by the defense that this method published 20 English articles daily about China and Hong Kong.

The defense then showed messages between Lai and Mark Simon: “Mark, Imagine if we get Mike Pence to subscribe to the Apple Daily app! The publicity and respect it would command would arouse much support for us. I know it’s almost impossible to pull it off. But can try? Thanks. Jimmy.”

The defense asked if Lai was suggesting that Pence could read news in the Apple Daily app. Lai agreed. The defense asked how foreign political figures subscribing to Apple Daily could translate into support for the publication. Lai responded that then-Vice President Pence could draw more attention to Apple Daily through his influence.

Lai added that he told Mark Simon, “I know it’s nearly impossible, but let’s try.” Ultimately, the attempt to get Pence to subscribe was unsuccessful due to U.S. security policy issues.

Regarding the testimony of the prosecution witness Yeung Ching-kee, Yeung had said that on May 20, 2020, along with Sang Pu, Simon Lee (Lee Siu-fu), and Fung Wai-kong, he discussed the English edition with Lai. Yeung quoted Lai saying that at that time, the U.S. government and its people were concerned about the human rights situation in Hong Kong, “He hoped the English edition would help Americans understand the situation in Hong Kong better and hoped the U.S. government would take tougher measures. If the Apple Daily English edition reported more on these issues, the U.S. government could act.”

Lai in court stated he did not remember if he had made the above remarks, but he could have said something similar. The defense asked if Lai had said, “hope the U.S. government would take tougher measures”? Lai replied that he is not the U.S. government and does not know what measures they would take, and he himself is not in a position to consider such matters.

Regarding Cheung Kim-hung’s claim that Lai felt the National Security Law was more severe than expected, “If it really is implemented, Hong Kong’s economy and finance would be gone, there’s no need for Apple Daily to exist anymore, so I hope the U.S. sanctions the CCP.”

The defense asked if Lai had ever spoken of sanctions? Lai denied it, stating he never discussed this matter with Cheung, nor had any reason to bring it up with him. Lai continued, even if he had spoken to Cheung, he would only express hope that the U.S. would do something to stop the National Security Law from taking effect, but would not use words like “sanctions” or “hostility,” noting he seldom uses such terms.

10:35 Lai: Only foreign societies can support Hong Kong’s fight for freedom

Lai messaged in the “English News” group, stating, “Please push this forward quickly, many major American media outlets want to interview me because they support us. It’s time to reach American readers, letting their presence become a lever for us with the U.S. government, a significant pillar of support.” Lai explained in court that he hopes American readers, after reading Apple Daily news, would speak out for Apple Daily, and their voices would reach American politicians, who he believes would listen to the opinions of American Apple Daily readers. The defense asked why foreign support was so crucial. Lai said, “because our only support comes from the foreign community. We don’t have any support here.”

The defense then asked, what exactly are they supporting in Hong Kong? Lai replied that it is support for Hong Kong’s fight for freedom and the movement. Judge Esther Toh Lye-ping asked if locals also support the movement? Lai clarified that while locals are fighting for freedom, only foreign societies can provide support, mentioning that since April 2019, foreign countries began supporting the anti-extradition law movement through media and news.

Judge Alex Lee Wan-tang asked what Lai meant by “foreign.” Lai specified it was the U.S., Western countries like the UK, and Europe. Judge Lee further inquired if the Inter-Parliamentary Alliance on China (IPAC) was one such entity? Lai responded that he had not heard of IPAC at the time and only became aware of it afterwards. The defense noted they would inquire further on this later, focusing now on the events of May 2020.

10:20 Lai: The world wants to understand negative news to protect itself

Regarding Lai’s message that “we are not seeking balance, but considering the perspective of protecting Hong Kong people,” the defense asked what this meant. Lai explained that the viewpoint of Hong Kong people was from the “yellow” side, opposed to the “blue,” pro-government, and pro-China groups. Judge Susana Maria D’Almada Remedios asked if by “yellow,” he meant the opposite of “blue,” implying they were anti-government and anti-China? Lai agreed, noting they were “more critical about the government and about China.”

Lai further noted in his message, “considering the protection of Hong Kong people’s perspective. This is the voice the world wants to know.” He believed that during the pandemic, the world had a somewhat negative impression of China, and they would want to know more about China’s negative news to protect themselves from potential negative impacts from China. Judge Esther Toh Lye-ping asked what “protecting oneself” meant. Lai responded that it meant avoiding the dangers brought about by the virus.

When asked how Lai knew the world did not want to hear positive news about China, he said, “Generally, in news, bad news is good news anyway. You seldomly find good news in a newspaper except in sports.”

Lai reiterated that “South China Morning Post” only reports positive news about China but “overlooks a lot of negative news,” such as some negative economic growth.

10:08 Lai Acknowledges Apple Daily Does Not Report Positive News on China

The defense continued questioning about the English edition of Apple Daily, playing a recording from Lai’s “English News” WhatsApp group dated May 13, 2020. The conversation went as follows:

Lai: I think the situation is like this, for English news, the main thing is, especially the news and articles from mainland, like those from the opposition
Male Voice: Human rights activists?
Lai: Yes, human rights activists, those like Ren Zhiqiang, and that professor, sometimes they publish articles, like the “Fang Fang Diaries”, can we pick the most essential parts of Fang Fang’s diaries to use each day?
Male Voice: No, it’s sold (the rights) to the USA.
Lai: No? OK, like that then, there are such things, we could pick a little bit to use, we could also buy it back, just pick a little bit to show daily, like snippets, translate a segment of it, if there’s something from mainland on the internet, we can publish it too, it’s an alternative to the Morning Post, regarding news about the mainland.

Lai confirmed that the voice in the recording was his, but he did not remember who the other male voice was.

In a group message dated May 10, Lai said, “When we choose writers we don’t have to think about giving foreigner a balanced view of what happens here of every different colors, we only concentrate in our Apple Daily Hk view, a general view of the yellow side. In choosing further writers we need not choose Weijian shan, who’s a friend of mine and very popular writer about China in the west. But his view is all china on the positive side we don’t need. We are not trying to strike a balance but the point of view of the people on the side of protecting HK. This is the voice the world wants to know.

The defense asked why Lai stated, “We don’t need to consider presenting different colors of viewpoints to foreigners.” Lai explained, “Because the English news is very limited. We have like maybe 20 items of news. And as I explained of the bird cage, through a set of values that the English news things together and consists. So, you know, we have to choose what is to the point or what we want.”

Lai also noted that he reports on some issues that the South China Morning Post would not cover, thus breaking its monopoly. The defense asked, does Apple Daily not report positive news about China? Lai agreed. When asked which media does report positive news about China, Lai named the South China Morning Post.

Judge Esther Toh asked if the news Lai chose reflects his views. Lai agreed, saying, “What we reflect is consistent with our values.”

10:04 Court Session Begins

In the same case, the co-defendant, Fung Wai-kong, also known as “Lo Fung,” the former executive editor and chief editorial writer of the English edition, who is currently in custody, attended the hearing in the extended court, with three correctional officers seated next to him.

The Witness